(How does the euphemism go- yes, that's it, for proponents of active management, I'm just "stirring the pot")
Are you slicing and dicing generally, or just in Canada (with XRE)?
(How does the euphemism go- yes, that's it, for proponents of active management, I'm just "stirring the pot")


Bylo Selhi wrote:You may or may not want to take on the hassles of running accounts at multiple institutions in order to minimize costs. (Simplicity is both a virtue and has value, particularly for people with dayjobs.) I'm not trying to sell you on either option, only pointing out that there are alternatives to paying BGI a 55bp lifetime annuity for what seems to me is very little service rendered.
Anyway, a question for Yogi. If you were to take a fork off the yellow brick road as I did, would you then no longer consider yourself to be an indexer?

boib22 wrote:The biggest drawback of going on your own is the emotional baggage you bring to the equation. Now only you are responsible for your decisions and you don’t have anyone else to blame if things don’t go as planned.

YogiBear wrote:The dividend stocks are a special case. I guess the old "withdrawal"- income issue changes the terms of discussion, since the focus is on sustainable income, rather than capital growth. ISTM in this case an index/ active distinction is less useful than a "expected sustainable and sufficient (income)" vs "potentially unsustainable and uncertain (income)" distinction.

parvus wrote:Are you slicing and dicing generally, or just in Canada (with XRE)?

I prefer a better one - RMH.I only care about CMH

Shakespeare wrote:I prefer a better one - RMH.I only care about CMH
(Risk Matters Hypothesis.)


George$ wrote:ps I've not been posting much lately as my left arm is slowly and painfully recovering from a messy compound fracture. But I continue to enjoy reading all the great to and fro posts here at FWF.


So, to answer your question, I don't slice and dice. I have exposure to the world's publicly traded equity through broad or total market indices. I also have exposure to Canadian real estate, and fixed income.


parvus wrote:But actually, I was thinking of global exposure to real estate, or for that matter, fixed income ... I would assume, given your walking the talk, that you hold as few ETFs as possible, so I was just wondering about what you feel gives the broadest-possible exposure and which classes you have to pinpoint, e.g., real estate.

sSga/streetTracks is introducing a DJ Wilshire International Real Estate etf imminently, which you can buy on the US Exchanges. There is also a global property iShare trading on the FTSE currently.YogiBear wrote:parvus wrote:But actually, I was thinking of global exposure to real estate, or for that matter, fixed income ... I would assume, given your walking the talk, that you hold as few ETFs as possible, so I was just wondering about what you feel gives the broadest-possible exposure and which classes you have to pinpoint, e.g., real estate.
There are no international bond ETFs, for example (do the new foreign currency ETFs count?), nor international Reit ETFs.

Coincidentally, a timely development today on the same topic:tidal wrote:sSga/streetTracks is introducing a DJ Wilshire International Real Estate etf imminently, which you can buy on the US Exchanges. There is also a global property iShare trading on the FTSE currently.
With the U.S. real estate market teetering, investors are increasingly looking overseas for ways to access the popular real estate asset class. Recently, Northern Trust launched the world’s first global real estate index fund, and global real estate indexes are all-the-rage. There is a feeling that in real estate, as in other asset classes, different parts of the world are functioning at different points of the cycle, and that diversifying overseas offers the potential to boost those returns.
Jumping on this bandwagon, indexing giant Dimensional Fund Advisors (DFA) has filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) for the right to launch an international real estate fund. The fund will complement the existing DFA U.S. fund. It will generally follow a free-float market-cap weighted index, although it has the discretion to deviate from that to ensure adequate country diversification.
The prospectus is available here.
The fund focuses largely on developed ex-U.S. markets, although - curiously - it includes three countries generally thought of as emerging markets: Turkey, Taiwan and South Africa.

I think the allocation to "international bonds" at OTPP is about 1%, and at CPPIB I think it might be 0%... just to put some perspective on this...
The theory of global fixed income investing is relatively simple, and the same logic has been well accepted in the equity markets. Investors who diversify globally can expect to be rewarded by superior long-term results. The higher incremental yields available in some markets, when combined with the diversification and risk reduction benefits of a broader opportunity set, lead to an improved information ratio.
However, implementation is far more complex.
<snip>
Table 1 shows that foreign bond markets are more volatile than Canadian bonds, but low correlations make foreign markets a good diversifying asset class to reduce overall portfolio risk and/or enhance returns for a given risk profile. However, correlation data and optimization are notoriously sensitive to the time period used. Interest rates have been on a downward slide for the past two decades, and credit spreads have been on a general narrowing trend. Analysis based on recent periods may therefore not provide a reliable indicator of future relationships, particularly in a new regime of lower, more stable inflation coupled with potential event risk.


tidal wrote:I think the allocation to "international bonds" at OTPP is about 1%, and at CPPIB I think it might be 0%... just to put some perspective on this...

tidal wrote:sSga/streetTracks is introducing a DJ Wilshire International Real Estate etf imminently, which you can buy on the US Exchanges.
There is also a global property iShare trading on the FTSE currently.
Regarding international bond etf's ... there are also £- and euro-denominated bond etf's trading on FTSE. [emphasis added]
But furthermore, you can call up your broker and buy bonds denominated in euro's, £, rand, krona, aussie $, kiwi $, swiss franc, yen ... I mention this just because the reality is that one is hardly "constrained" from investing in these asset classes, and the depth of the etf market is only going to get better [emphasis added]
... But really, does "no international bond etf" mean "i guess we can forget about retirement until we get one, darn it!"? I think the allocation to "international bonds" at OTPP is about 1%, and at CPPIB I think it might be 0%... just to put some perspective on this...

There are some other tables etc. at their site that support their conclusions. (Emphasis added above mine.).The Use of Global Bonds
Generally, investors pursue global portfolios in order to diversify. Statistically, diversification should result in lower portfolio volatility due to the combination of uncorrelated assets. The use of non-dollar developed market bonds, however, introduces foreign currency exposure. Currency exposure noticeably increases the volatility of the fixed income portfolio, while there is no reliable evidence to suggest that the expected return of exchange rates is anything other than zero. If volatility is increased with the addition of global assets, the whole purpose of international diversification is defeated. Therefore, we believe currency exposure should be hedged in global bond portfolios.
With currency exposures hedged away, the goal of diversification is attained. Introducing hedged foreign bonds into a domestic portfolio reduces the volatility of the portfolio. Portfolios of hedged global bonds, including the Two-Year Global Fixed Income Portfolio and Five-Year Global Fixed Income Portfolio, take advantage of imperfect correlations among developed bond markets and enjoy the classic benefits of diversification. Further, given the global nature of highly rated debt issuers, this international diversification can be reached without sacrificing the credit standards maintained in domestic portfolios.
In terms of returns, just as investors are no longer subject to the risk of one bond market, they are no longer subject to the expected returns of just one yield curve. Expected returns across hedged bonds differ as the shape of each yield curve is different. Portfolios can be formed that are tilted toward the higher expected return countries. In this case, portfolio maturities and country weightings follow a variable approach based on the expected return matrix generated for each eligible country.
In our view, global bonds do not represent a separate and distinct asset class from domestic fixed income. Instead, the use of currency-hedged, non-dollar bonds along with domestic bonds allows investors to create a more diversified, less risky fixed income portfolio. Global bond portfolios are often better suited than their domestic-only counterparts to achieve the primary goal of fixed income in the investment portfolio—reducing its volatility.

tidal wrote:My points on alternatives for investing in international bonds stand. I was trying to provide that as information, and it's accurate. Are there costs involved? Not surprisingly, yes, but if you feel you "need" the asset class, surely a one-time $100 or $200 extra price of admission is worth it, since the benefit must outweigh it?
As to the size of the benefit, admittedly it is a matter of opinion. The reality is though, for a Canadian investor, that the compounded 5-year return on the CIBC Global Bond Index fund you reference is -0.90% (albeit without the MER rebate) and the since-inception number (almost 9 years ago) is 1.63%.
Granted, it did protect you in 2002, but in general, you want to add asset classes that not only have low correlations to other portfolio investments, but that also have good risk-adjusted expected returns.
My opinion, and it is just my opinion, is that you should keep your fixed income exposure domestic, and get your foreign currency exposure via equity investing (or property investing)... Hence my lack of interest in the asset class.
Fwiw, here is what DFA has to say on global bond investing:There are some other tables etc. at their site that support their conclusions. (Emphasis added above mine.).The Use of Global Bonds
In our view, global bonds do not represent a separate and distinct asset class from domestic fixed income.
Now, the final paragraph can be read to support your opinion of global bonds in a portfolio, or it can be used to support mine - and in the end they are just opinions.
On the other hand, as I have mentioned here earlier, I do not believe in hedging away currency when in investing in foreign equities. To each his own.
Regarding OTPP and CPPIB allocations to non-North American bonds at approximately 1% and 0% currently. I stand by those numbers. Will they change in the future? Who knows, but clearly they have not considered this "job 1" in effectively investing and diversifying their portfolios. That was my point regarding perspective on the asset class.

Therefore, we believe currency exposure should be hedged in global bond portfolios.
<snip>
In our view, global bonds do not represent a separate and distinct asset class from domestic fixed income. Instead, the use of currency-hedged, non-dollar bonds along with domestic bonds allows investors to create a more diversified, less risky fixed income portfolio. Global bond portfolios are often better suited than their domestic-only counterparts to achieve the primary goal of fixed income in the investment portfolio—reducing its volatility.
Fixed Income and Absolute Return Strategies
This asset class represents 19% of the fund and takes advantage of a range of sophisticated investment techniques to earn returns above market benchmarks.
We include a number of different types of investments in this category: absolute return strategies, hedge funds, our currency policy hedge, as well as the traditional fixed-income investments in government and corporate bonds and money-market securities.
Investments in this category represented 19% of the fund's investments at year end.
Bonds and money-market securities
Our bond portfolio holds Government of Canada bonds, global bonds, Ontario government debentures, corporate bonds (including convertible bonds and high-yield unsecured notes) and money market securities that provide the fund with a regular stream of income.To diversify our bond portfolio, we have credit portfolios that include new emerging market strategies and North American high-yield securities.
These holdings provide the plan with the liquidity it needs to pay pensions each month. We also manage the bond portfolio relative to its benchmark by trading in anticipation of interest rate changes. In the absence of inflation, long-term government and corporate bonds give stability to our asset mix.
We have established a position in Canadian real-return bonds (RRBs) and have added Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities (TIPS) issued by the United States government. Canadian RRBs are in short supply, requiring us to consider similar bonds from other countries. We also see trading inflation-linked bonds as a potential source of above-market returns.
Impact of currency hedging on the results
The strength of the Canadian dollar against other currencies affected the Caisse’s overall return, with the result that the specialized portfolios hedged against foreign exchange risk outperformed the unhedged specialized portfolios. The hedged Foreign Equity portfolio returned 28.1%, significantly more than the 10.4% return on the unhedged portfolio. This difference of 1,766 b.p. (17.66%) is due mainly to the appreciation of the Canadian dollar against the euro (18%), but also against the yen (18%) and the pound sterling (15%).
As for the difference of 182 b.p. (1.82%) between the return on the hedged U.S. Equity portfolio and the return on the unhedged U.S. Equity portfolio, it is due to the 3% appreciation of the Canadian dollar against the greenback. The Investments and Infrastructures, Private Equity, Real Estate Debt and Real Estate portfolios are hedged against currency
risk.


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