For Married Couples - Finances

[bowtie]

In pre-marital counseling I've heard that finances are one of the biggest conflict areas between married couples.

FWFmates, have you found that to be true? What tips do you have for those about to tie the knot? A friend of mine has monthly "crazy money" that can be spent without consulting his wife, an idea that I find interesting.

We've had good discussions on how we were raised and how we spend money. I think we're quite compatible and I'm under no illusion that we won't have disagreements but if there's anything I can start thinking about today I'd very much appreciate hearing from the collective.

Thanks in advance.

[big easy]

I think problems arise when one person is frivolous with money and the other person is anal about it. It could also be difficult when only one person is working and the other is a "dependent". The "dependent" could resent having to ask for money and the earner could resent some of the spouse's purchases.

My wife and I both work, we have our own accounts, we share expenses & we are both savers. Never had an argument over money. I suppose if I was scrimping and saving and she spent every dollar she earned, that would be a problem.

[nile]

never really had any arguments with the wife about money.
those people who argue probable dont frequent this site.
we both work, i do the books,bills and investing -- mostly out of default as she has no interest
we have joint accounts for everything -- both of us are aggressive savers ( well i am at least -- her by default)
she really doesnt spend anything on herself just the three kids
i only get annoyed if she spends more on clothes for the kids than she would on herself -- she is thrifty likes winners marshalls sales etc and my daughter likes lululemon.
would agree with prior posts that problems occur when people marry who have vastly different views/relationships on/with money -- these differences have to be acknowledged and mediated prior to marriage.

[Descartes]

What works for others may not work for you and your spouse.

But, for what it is worth, my wife and I approached it this way:
We defined a budget for monthly costs per category (that is periodically reviewed). Any revenue over the budget goes to savings (which includes investment). Any temporary surplus goes to savings (which includes accumulation for big purchases). We are both free to spend the budget in each category however we like but we record what we spend and (if called upon) need to justify that spend to the other. Its worked for about 19 years now...of course I am, however, rapidly approaching the age of mid-life crises.

If you are just starting out, I would suggest you take a look at this site from the "Till Debt Do Us Part" host:
http://www.gailvazoxlade.com/resources.html

[bowtie]

Thanks. We haven't had problems with finances and I hope we might end up like you guys as well.

[tedster]

FWIW, when I got married in Quebec many years ago, one was automatically "common" as to property. Pre-marital courses advised us to register as "separate" as to property. Which we did. However, my parents always fought over money and between her parents only the wife decided so we agreed to have only one joint account into which all money would go and each could withdraw at will. i.e behave as if we were "common" as to property. This went well for many years until she started to work. Her income was much less than mine. Everything had been 50/50 since the beginning, RRSPs etc. However, she honoured the agreement for about 6 years until one day I discovered that she was no longer depositing her salary. And then as they say, the trouble started. 24 months later she filed for divorce. My guess is that she was accruing a "divorce" fund.

Ergo, my advice in hindsight. Keep your finances separate, agree on "rules" on who pays what, and if your partner cannot/will not keep to these rules, you have to face a split. Keep documents/title on what belongs to who. Statistics today indicate that divorce is pretty well inevitable. Do not take on financial responsibility beyond that on which you have agreed. i.e if you want to go on a vacation and your spouse does not want to pay her/his way do not offer to pay (unless you really want to) and just go on your own.

[Nemo2]

Geez, Tedster, that's a pretty sad commentary/conclusion.......if you don't trust the person, (REALLY trust them), then I'd say don't marry 'em.

A post from 3 1/2 years ago (the bottom half of the post).

[AltaRed]

Nemo, I think it is becoming rare for couples today to not to be overly influenced by money. Rampant consumerism, mortgage and consumer debt to the ears, having to have Bose electronics and Coach purses and $200 designer jeans and all that stuff is common. Any pressures on finances will bring out the different 'financial behaviours' in the couple and it goes downhill from there. I would advise any young couple today to keep separate bank and investment accounts (JTWROS is fine), with a single joint bank account for household expenses, funded according to an agreed formula. Love is no longer marriage nor vice versa.

The days when my spouse and I, married for 39 years, trusted each other implicitly and explicitly right up to, and including the negotiations of our Separation agreement a year after we physically separated into different houses, are pretty much long gone.

[Nemo2]

The days when my spouse and I, married for 39 years, trusted each other implicitly and explicitly right up to, and including the negotiations of our Separation agreement a year after we physically separated into different houses, are pretty much long gone.

Agreed...and I think it's a sad commentary on 'society'.....my wife, we've been together 7 years+, are 'non-consumers', we neither want nor buy 'stuff'......her ex, however, is/was a spender.

But.....in a mirror image of my Riyadh anecdote, she was the one relocating when her marital home sale was being finalized.......the lawyer asked about the disposition of funds and she told him to just send it all to her ex and he'd give her her share...which he did.

So, behavior isn't necessarily welded to integrity.....but, perhaps, as you say...a different generation. I dunno.

[bowtie]

Statistics today indicate that divorce is pretty well inevitable..

Well at least I'm not hearing from y'all that money is that money issues led to the marital problems...

[mikester]

I would speculate that the two main reasons for money arguments are:

1) Poor finances. If you have a tight budget, more cuts/decisions have to be made which can cause controversy ie Are my hockey costs more important than her hair appointments? Our budget was much tighter about five years ago and I used to get pretty annoyed at a lot of expenditures that my wife made. Now - I don't worry about it so much.

2) (as already noted) Different styles ie one is a spender/other is a saver.

[tedster]

Nemo2 wrote

Geez, Tedster, that's a pretty sad commentary/conclusion.......if you don't trust the person, (REALLY trust them), then I'd say don't marry 'em.

People change and evolve. Some times they forget to what they agreed. In my case we were together 34 years, empty nesters for at least 14.. so time to move on and explore life? I suppose that she did not want .. or feel that the change was "open to discussion". My fault? Her fault? another thread? lol

bowtie wrote

Well at least I'm not hearing from y'all that money is that money issues led to the marital problems...

I have no data, but I think money is behind most broken marriages.

Anyhow my 20:20 hindsight says that before entering into matrimony both parties should draw up a list of rules/agreements. A lot of these will centre around money, but some will envisage changes to the relationshhip. eg. what happens if there is a child.. or two. What happens if one party feels that the rules need to be changed? A little foresight and discussion will definitely prevent a lot of pain later.

[Nemo2]

Nemo2 wrote

Geez, Tedster, that's a pretty sad commentary/conclusion.......if you don't trust the person, (REALLY trust them), then I'd say don't marry 'em.

People change and evolve. Some times they forget to what they agreed. In my case we were together 34 years, empty nesters for at least 14.. so time to move on and explore life? I suppose that she did not want .. or feel that the change was "open to discussion". My fault? Her fault? another thread? lol

I agree that people change, their wants/desires change, they drift apart or even rush apart.......but surely their 'essence' remains the same, vis-a-vis fair play?

[Flights of Fancy]

I have no data, but I think money is behind most broken marriages.

I'd wager [see what I did there?] that it isn't money per se but the lack of agreement on larger goals. Isn't money just a tool for expressing other things - and conflict over money really conflict over unshared goals?

I've been married twice and in my current arrangement, share all money. I make all the money decisions, too - I run the household finances and for years and years have outearned my husband.

[DavidR]

Did you lend him money to pay for the wedding?

[Flights of Fancy]

Hellllloooo, we got married in my sister's house with a handful of guests and we had [shudder] a buffet dinner. There was no lending of money as there was virtually no money spent! (It all went to the month-long honeymoon in Morocco but even that cost very little, too.)

[AltaRed]

I got married in a rural church with the reception put on by the church ladies in the local town hall. Not even a high paid photographer.

In contrast, I know a couple that went nuts with a big wedding at the Fairmont Chateau Lake Louise last year. Must have cost circa $50k and neither of the couple were earning high incomes (and the inlaws did not have it either). They will be paying for it for the next 10 years (if they are still together by then).

[Flights of Fancy]

I got married in a rural church with the reception put on by the church ladies in the local town hall. Not even a high paid photographer.

Oh, I will out-frugal you! I had NO photographer. My MIL still sorta believes it was some kind of plot. I do have snapshots....somewhere. I am not a sentimental person, not that I don't love my husband and cherish and cultivate my marriage.

Unless you also meant that you also had no photographer, in case I will call a tie on this high-stakes frugal wedding cage match. (I had my mom make the cake, too!)

[AltaRed]

Unless you also meant that you also had no photographer, in case I will call a tie on this high-stakes frugal wedding cage match. (I had my mom make the cake, too!)

No photographer either, but you win anyway..... on the cake item. A bakery produced ours (I think). Knowing where the cake came from was not a priority for me

[Jo Anne]

I got married in a rural church with the reception put on by the church ladies in the local town hall. Not even a high paid photographer.

Oh, I will out-frugal you! I had NO photographer. My MIL still sorta believes it was some kind of plot. I do have snapshots....somewhere. I am not a sentimental person, not that I don't love my husband and cherish and cultivate my marriage.

Unless you also meant that you also had no photographer, in case I will call a tie on this high-stakes frugal wedding cage match. (I had my mom make the cake, too!)

I can out-frugal the lot of you.

We got married at city hall in Toronto, after giving our families 10 days notice of the event. After the ceremony, everyone took the subway to my grandmother's house at Bloor & Ossington, where the "reception" was held. The food consisted of pot-luck provided by a couple of my aunts.

My wedding dress was a navy blue mini-dress that I borrowed from my cousin.

[Jaunty]

I got married in a rural church with the reception put on by the church ladies in the local town hall. Not even a high paid photographer.

Oh, I will out-frugal you! I had NO photographer. My MIL still sorta believes it was some kind of plot. I do have snapshots....somewhere. I am not a sentimental person, not that I don't love my husband and cherish and cultivate my marriage.

Unless you also meant that you also had no photographer, in case I will call a tie on this high-stakes frugal wedding cage match. (I had my mom make the cake, too!)

I can out-frugal the lot of you.

We got married at city hall in Toronto, after giving our families 10 days notice of the event. After the ceremony, everyone took the subway to my grandmother's house at Bloor & Ossington, where the "reception" was held. The food consisted of pot-luck provided by a couple of my aunts.

My wedding dress was a navy blue mini-dress that I borrowed from my cousin.

We combined our wedding with a trip to Vermont where we got married in the Justice of the Peace's living room, with just the 3 of us present. The JP's husband dropped into the room and used our camera to take 6 or 7 pictures. Then it was the 2 of us to a happy hour at a bar we liked for the "reception". I don't know the cost - not much - but a copy of the wedding certificate was an extra $5.00.

[Nemo2]

My lady & I went here.......wearing (our best) shorts & T-shirts for an outside front porch ceremony....just us, the officiant, her cat, and two dead (headless) mice that the cat thoughtfully provided as witnesses.

Afterward we notified people via an addendum to a how-was-our-day e-mail.

[HardWorker]

What a bunch of cheap a-- .....err, frugal people on here. Theres already a thread for outdoing each other . For the record we spent a bit on our wedding. We had family from all corners of the world have a wonderful time and we have memories for a lifetime. Isn't that a good use for money? My wife wanted to spend more, I wanted to spend less, we agreed in the middle. We saved up, family pitched in, and did certain things ourselves to save money. Point is, it only worked because the wife and I agreed on things, and compromised.

We are still newly(ish) wed of 2 years and kid along the way. Financial arguments are bare minimal with us, but it was a much bigger issue at first. My wife is an intelligent, compassionate and hard working soul, but was very clueless about money when we met. She had no idea what compounding interest was, she thought a mortgage is a life time loan, and she thought investing was only for the super rich and elite. Our first dinner I paid with a credit card, she later told me she thought I was broke and thats why I had to use a credit card to pay for dinner

Needless to say we had some work to do, and over the years we've come a long way together, and our financial attitudes are pretty much inline. What I would suggest to you:

1) Talk about it, don't hide anything. Talk about your thoughts, feelings, and attitude towards money. Talk about teaching your kids about money, talk about what you see and hope for the future.

2) Set mutual goals to keep you focused and in sync with each other. Us for example, we have circled the end of the mortgage a few months away.

3) Meet in the middle, don't lean too much over to one side, it won't work if one partner feels unequal or if their goals don't seem important.

4) Enjoy your hard earned money equally (together, or separate). People resent tight wads as much as frivolous spenders. Just make sure your spending money brings you joy equally.

5) When you reach a goal, sit back and enjoy it fully. For example, if you saved up money for a vacation and the time comes, relax and completely enjoy the vacation. Never argue or say oh I changed my mind, we should use this money for something else. Also be sure to highlight this reward for each other, and tell each other why don't mind hard work, saving, and comprising a little. Last month, for example, under the Eiffel tower, I kissed my wife and said "now you understand why I'm content driving an 11 year old car with 400,000 kms?". She smiled and said "yeah, you're a cheap ass"

6) As part of the honest talks I mentioned earlier, if one of you wants a prenuptial, talk about it and do it. We talked about it, and saw each others point of view, and then went ahead and did it. Its not taboo, and it isn't saying you don't trust each other and your marriage is doomed. I think it shows maturity and understanding.

Good luck, and remember if 50% of marriage end in divorce, the other 50% made it work

[newguy]

I still buy milk by the litre.

newguy

[adrian2]

She had no idea what compounding interest was, she thought a mortgage is a life time loan

Her idea was not too far from the word's etymology: The word mortgage is a Law French term meaning "dead pledge," apparently meaning that the pledge ends (dies) either when the obligation is fulfilled or the property is taken through foreclosure.