Whither interest rates?

Saving strategies, maximizing interest rates, budgeting.

Whither interest rates?

Postby Norbert Schlenker » 27 Jun 2005 11:53

Running for 4+ months now and I don't see a thread just about future interest rates (yeah, there are GIC threads and mortgage threads and links in various threads) but no rate forecasting per se.

Some food for thought in today's NYTimes.

Federal Reserve officials, who meet this week, are beginning to suspect that the perplexing decline in long-term interest rates is more than a temporary aberration.

The possibility has major implications for the economy, and it creates new puzzles for Fed officials on how they should respond.

On Thursday, the Fed is all but certain to raise the federal funds rate on overnight loans between banks by another quarter point, to 3.25 percent. That would be the ninth increase in the last year, and the central bank is expected to signal that it will continue to raise overnight rates at a "measured" pace.

But the real debate at the meeting is expected to be about the unexpected decline of long-term interest rates, which have kept mortgage rates at their lowest level in decades and fueled what many analysts fear is a bubble in housing prices.

...

One school of thought holds that low bond yields are a harbinger of slowing economic growth, which would reduce demand for credit in the future. Another school holds that global investors have lower inflation expectations than in the past, which reduces the risk of holding long-term bonds. If either theory is correct, the Federal Reserve would have less need to fend off inflation and could stop raising short-term rates at a much lower level than in the past - perhaps below 4 percent.

But yet another theory holds that long-term interest rates may have been depressed by other factors, including a "savings glut" around the world and efforts by Asian central banks to keep the value of their currencies down by buying United States Treasury securities.

If that is true, the flood of foreign money into the country could be diluting the Fed's effort to prevent inflation. That would imply that the Fed needs to raise rates more than many investors are expecting. ...
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Re: Whither interest rates?

Postby jiHymas » 27 Jun 2005 12:06

Norbert Schlenker wrote:
NY Times wrote:One school of thought holds that low bond yields are a harbinger of slowing economic growth, which would reduce demand for credit in the future. Another school holds that global investors have lower inflation expectations than in the past, which reduces the risk of holding long-term bonds. If either theory is correct, the Federal Reserve would have less need to fend off inflation and could stop raising short-term rates at a much lower level than in the past - perhaps below 4 percent.

But yet another theory holds that long-term interest rates may have been depressed by other factors, including a "savings glut" around the world and efforts by Asian central banks to keep the value of their currencies down by buying United States Treasury securities.

It's my theory that these exceptionally low interest rates are a bubble.

A pension fund's liabilities are valued in accordance with long term interest rates. The decline of these long rates to an extremely low real level, combined with relatively unappealing stock market returns, has pushed these funds off-side and caused enormous funding deficits (now playing: Ontario Teachers. See DB Pension Funding).

A lot of these funds, I'm sure, are capitulating ... increasing their bond portfolios to reduce the asset/liability mismatch. And so the 10+ year real rate stays low, except when it goes down even further and puts the funds even more offside. Bubble.

Real rates will, I'm sure, return to their historical ranges "eventually". In the meantime, the market has an infinite capacity to make us broke.
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Postby Springbok » 27 Jun 2005 12:10

Played golf with a senior person at a Canadian Bank the other day.

I was surprised to hear that our banks are having problems loaning money to large borrowers at current rates. Apparently they are often outbid by European banks where rates are even lower.

Presumably if our rates increase further, our banks will be even less competitive.

Mergers would appraently help this, but he did not explain just how.
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Postby Shakespeare » 18 Oct 2005 09:09

Whither today is up to 3%.

(We'll see if ING boosts its rate. :wink:)
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Postby Feeonly.ca » 18 Oct 2005 12:45

Given 13 rate hikes by the Fed and more to come I would expect at least 7 - 10 increases over the next 16 to 24 months. This would keep the spread between the US and Cdn rates somewhere close to traditional levels.

We are lagging the US (inflation) somewhat but are being pulled along all the same.

Come mid/late 2007 there would be room to start easing rates once again.

From todays Bank of Canada press release:

In line with the Bank's outlook, and given that the Canadian economy now appears to be operating at capacity, some further reduction of monetary stimulus will be required to maintain a balance between aggregate supply and demand over the next four to six quarters, and to keep inflation on target.
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Postby Shakespeare » 18 Oct 2005 12:52

7 - 10 increases
IIRC, "neutral" is around 4% - only four quarter-point increases from today. That many increases [7-10] would be a significant tightening, and would likely cause stocks [including trusts] and bonds [both normal and RRBs] to drop from today's levels.

A cheerful prospect. :roll:
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Postby Small Investor Activist » 18 Oct 2005 12:59

Why does it matter Schlonger, your portfolio is on autopilot.
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Postby ghariton » 18 Oct 2005 14:08

Small Investor Activist wrote:Why does it matter ****, your portfolio is on autopilot.

I don't know about Norbert, but as far as I'm concerned, my portfolio may be on autopilot as you say, but my savings rate is not.

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Postby Feeonly.ca » 18 Oct 2005 15:13

~4% is neutral after inflation/stimulation has been removed from the economic pipeline.

With five years (an counting) of peddle-to-the-metal fiscal, monetary and consumer stimulation the amount of braking required to normalize the situation will be an equal an opposite amount of pressure. Like putting a freighter in neutral after it has a full head of steam it doesn't slow it much except at the margin. (housing price bust for example)

Greenspan said some time ago that even a very small risk of a Japanese style mild deflation was worse than the significant inflationary "overshoot" that was almost guaranteed to occur.

Eventually, after the brakes have been fully applied I would expect that ~4% would be close to neutral.

How this will effect the capital markets is complex and impossible to predict. Lots of negatives but longer term removing inflation risk should be a big positive all round.

We are in uncharted waters, or as Greenspan would say the current situation is a “conundrum”.

your portfolio is on autopilot

If you have an "all weather" portfolio you can ride out any storm. Those who are carrying too much sail or are rigged for light weather may well learn the hard way about the merits of prudent (portfolio) design.
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Postby nadreck » 18 Oct 2005 15:23

Feeonly.ca wrote:~4% is neutral after inflation/stimulation has been removed from the economic pipeline.


3% after inflation for long term money is normal from the litterature I read.

feeonly.ca wrote:If you have an "all weather" portfolio you can ride out any storm. Those who are carrying too much sail or are rigged for light weather may well learn the hard way about the merits of prudent (portfolio) design.


Or you get to see how fast you can jibe to carry the nautical metaphor-ward
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Postby Shakespeare » 18 Oct 2005 15:25

how fast you can jibe
Think or thwim? :wink:
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Postby nadreck » 18 Oct 2005 15:35

Shakespeare wrote:
how fast you can jibe
Think or thwim? :wink:


ROFL, you can lead 'em to water but you can't make 'em think
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Postby Norbert Schlenker » 24 Oct 2005 12:29

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Postby yielder » 26 Oct 2005 05:33

Norbert Schlenker wrote:Bernanke will be new Fed chief.


As Fed Chairman, Ben Bernanke will bring competence and continuity to the Fed. He is a superb monetary economist and communicator. He shares with other Fed officials the strong commitment to the goals of monetary policy that fit the Fed’s dual mandate prescribed by Congress: Price stability and maximum sustainable growth. And he has the respect of and for the Fed. Ditto for policymakers around the world.

So where are the risks? There is no doubt that Bernanke lacks his predecessor’s experience — but so did Alan Greenspan following Paul Volcker. Market participants will have to learn more about Bernanke in coming months, but they knew much less about Greenspan as a policymaker when he was appointed in 1987. And markets will no doubt test Bernanke’s skills — as a leader, as a crisis manager, and as a savvy politician. The rally in risky assets today may say more about the lifting of uncertainty about the nomination process than about confidence in the nominee. But Bernanke will captain a strong team at the Fed and will rely on them in the early days of his tenure.

What should investors look for in the new Fed Chair-designate? As Fed Governor Bernanke promoted the increased transparency that began under Greenspan in 1994. In his view, the increased level of communication between the Fed and market participants — manifest in more explicit statements following meetings, the expedited release of FOMC minutes, speeches by Fed officials, and willingness to engage in dialogue with market participants — makes monetary policy more effective and helps market participants understand policy nuances.

Bernanke is a strong proponent of inflation targeting — announcing and sticking to an explicit numerical target for inflation. But recognizing that implementing inflation targeting under the Fed’s dual mandate may not be easy, he will go cautiously. Before he left the Fed, he said that a somewhat more explicit numeric definition of the rate of inflation that would be consistent with the Fed's price stability mandate may be a good first step. No doubt as Chairman, Bernanke likely will want to continue a full, evolutionary vetting of the issues involved.

Reinforcing that conclusion, Bernanke is also a proponent of both gradualism and discretion in policymaking. Gradualism recognizes that an uncertain world most often means moving in small steps towards a likely policy setting. However, discretion implies that simple rules are not only inadequate to deal with the complex risks confronting policymakers, they may actually produce worse outcomes.

Last, Bernanke is commonly perceived to be a ‘dove’ on inflation. He is not. Likely he acquired that reputation because he helped lead the debate about how aggressively to fight even a small deflation risk while at the Fed, drawing on his study of the 1930s and of Japan. Inflation during his tenure at the Fed was not the issue it is today. But Bernanke is obviously committed to keeping inflation low, as evident in his proposed inflation target of 1-2% measured by the ‘core’ personal consumption price index.

Taking these factors into account, we think that Bernanke’s appointment has little to no bearing on the policy outlook between now and the end of 2006. Our baseline view is that the Federal funds rate will move gradually to 5% by the end of 2006.


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Postby Norbert Schlenker » 27 Oct 2005 13:08

A comment on Bernanke - actually central bankers as a class - from James Grant.
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Postby yielder » 27 Oct 2005 16:11

TD calls8.4% bonds due 12/1/2010 and issues 4.97% reset bonds due 10/30/2104 (yeh, the year is correct) callable 10/30/2015.

So where does TD think rates are going? And this isn't the first one. SLF called its 6.5% preferreds in May and issued 4.8% preferreds in June.
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Postby Bylo Selhi » 27 Oct 2005 17:31

Yielder wrote:4.97% reset bonds

have an interesting feature:
will pay a coupon of 4.97% until October 30, 2015 and then reset every 5 years to the 5-year Government of Canada yield plus 1.77% thereafter until maturity on October 30, 2104. The notes are redeemable at the Bank's option at par on October 30, 2015.

Is this a reasonable substitute for RRBs, especially if they're not called in 2015?
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Postby Shakespeare » 27 Oct 2005 17:35

Is this a reasonable substitute for RRBs
No. There's no indexation of the capital.
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Postby jiHymas » 27 Oct 2005 19:58

Bylo Selhi wrote:Is this a reasonable substitute for RRBs, especially if they're not called in 2015?

These qualify as tier-2 capital. I won't pretend to be conversant with all the rules governing this stuff, but basically this type of issue is designed to have a long enough term that the banks can pretend it's equity (for capital leverage purposes) with sufficiently punitive terms following the first call date so that the Street can pretend it's a regular bond, in this case with a ten-year "maturity".

Chances are, if you are holding it past its call date, you'll wish you weren't.
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Postby Bylo Selhi » 28 Oct 2005 11:38

Norbert Schlenker wrote:A comment on Bernanke - actually central bankers as a class - from James Grant.

Blodget on Bernanke

Be afraid. Very afraid ;)
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Postby Norbert Schlenker » 28 Oct 2005 12:40

jiHymas wrote:Chances are, if you are holding it past its call date, you'll wish you weren't.

Amen. Cf. the myriad step-up bonds, hawked to retail ad nauseum.
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Postby George$ » 28 Oct 2005 13:11

Norbert Schlenker wrote:
jiHymas wrote:Chances are, if you are holding it past its call date, you'll wish you weren't.

Amen. Cf. the myriad step-up bonds, hawked to retail ad nauseum.


Norbert If you have the time could you explain both Hymas' and your comments a bit more. I don't understand but sense that I probably should. I'm not familiar with the bond world.
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Postby Norbert Schlenker » 28 Oct 2005 14:04

Does this help at all?
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Postby jiHymas » 28 Oct 2005 18:05

George$ wrote:
Norbert Schlenker wrote:
jiHymas wrote:Chances are, if you are holding it past its call date, you'll wish you weren't.

Amen. Cf. the myriad step-up bonds, hawked to retail ad nauseum.


Norbert If you have the time could you explain both Hymas' and your comments a bit more. I don't understand but sense that I probably should. I'm not familiar with the bond world.

The Street does not, as a rule, want to buy 100-year bonds. They want to buy 10-years. The banks, however, want to sell 100-year bonds so they can count them as part of equity for capital reporting purposes.

The compromise is to offer this kind of bond ... the banks can argue to the regulators that they do not absolutely have to give back the money for 100 years, and argue to the street that they would be really stupid not to call the bond in 10 years (on the basis that after ten years the yield on the bonds will increase to the point where most (or, at least, enough!) investors will agree that the bank can save money by calling the issue and replacing it with something else).

In this case, the step-up is to the Canada 5-year rate + 177 bp. The current Canada 5-year-to-long spread is about 40bp. I checked 1993 (the steepest yield curve in my career ... and in the States, anyway, the steepest since the Civil War) and the Canada 5-long spread peaked at 176bp in January 1994 (to a bond guy, January 1994 counts as part of 1993). The current Bank-Canada long spread is about 90bp. The mathematically gifted can therefore calculate that the current Bank Long - Canada 5 spread is about 130bp.

So, with a little hokum, a little hand-waving and a stern injunction not to look at the man behind the curtain, the banks tell both the regulators and the Street what they want to hear.

Will the bonds, in fact, be called on their first call date? I'd say ... almost certainly. In which case the street will have earned a long spread on ten-year paper, not a problem as long as you know how, now how about my bonus?

BUT: what if the bank is in dire straits come 2015? What if conditions have changed to the point where they can't sell any paper at any price, let alone at a yield significantly less than Canada-5's + 177? Then you're stuck holding 90-year paper in a soon-to-be-bankrupt company; fortunately, however, owning that paper in 2006 helped you earn a nice bonus that year that you don't have to give back.

Don't think I'm being overly negative on this stuff. Portfolio Managers can buy a small amount in good conscience (especially if they have already reconciled their consciences with holding income trusts in bond portfolios). But there is a risk to these things that can't be ignored, and I am looking forward to the day when somewhere, sometime, somebody's portfolio blows up big-time because of these things. That would be ... almost ... as funny as the time a lot of money market funds got caught holding 100-year bank bonds that couldn't be sold at any reasonable price, having been previously thought of as suitable for inclusion in money market funds since they paid a spread off floating rate.
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Postby Shakespeare » 01 Nov 2005 15:28

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