Smith Manoeuvre - Questions

Money, investing, planning, insurance, taxes, and keeping the sharks away

Postby Nelson » 29Apr2008 11:12

LAJ wrote:Whoa. Just off the top of my head...

I thought we had determined that interest paid on a loan to invest in a fund that is RoC (or portion thereof) is NOT legally deductible? If it is not legal, doing so with intent would be fraud would it not, and promoting a fraudulent scheme is fraud is it not?

Specifically, which fund is this Nelson, I'd like to look at it.

And finally, what is the commission to the person setting this up?


I asked a tax accountant here is the scoop.........

"The answer is yes because the loan is used for investing to generate income.

ROC is just a business tactic to defer capital gains. The ROC will be recognized as income when you dispose of those shares."

I think it would work in Kiasmines situation because of the tax deduction alone. She would be able to pay down her mortgage faster. ( I believe I read somewhere that she no longer had a personal student loan, only mortgage at 100% $300,000)


I do agree with remortgaging at 5 years.......... not knowing the economy and the debt load will then be in favor of the banks hands
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Postby saylavbda » 29Apr2008 12:46

Nelson wrote:
I asked a tax accountant here is the scoop.........

"The answer is yes because the loan is used for investing to generate income.

ROC is just a business tactic to defer capital gains. The ROC will be recognized as income when you dispose of those shares."


May I suggest you find a new tax accountant. ROC is not a 'business tactic' but a tax classification for distributions. It reduces the ACB on the initial investment, when the ACB is either zero or the shares are sold, it is then treated as capital gains, not income. As such, the interest would not be allowed if that is all the fund ever paid.

The goal is to invest in something that has the potential to generate taxable income (not CG or ROC). So a dividend fund would count.
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Postby cardhu » 29Apr2008 13:03

Nelson's tax accountant wrote:"The ROC will be recognized as income when you dispose of those shares."

No it won't ... it'll be recognized as capital gain ... adjustments to ACB affect the amount of capital gain that'll be reported in future, not the amount of income.

Nelson's tax accountant wrote:"The answer is yes because the loan is used for investing to generate income.

The judgement in the Ludco case read, in part ...

“…it is clear that ‘income’ in s. 20(1)(c)(i) refers to income generally, that is an amount that would come into income for taxation purposes...”

Since ROC does not come into income for taxation purposes, it is not at all clear that it is, in fact, income, for interest deductibility purposes.
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Postby LAJ » 29Apr2008 20:13

Nelson, something sounds fishy to me. This is not for me, too many other people making money off of this program with no risk to them. (Salesman 5% of investment, Mutual fund company 2.73% MER, loan company 5. some odd% interest on loan)

good luck
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Postby adrian2 » 29Apr2008 20:34

pitz wrote:It might be worth noting that someone who borrowed under similar circumstances to buy equities didn't exactly do any better, for the performance of stocks and bonds was pretty similar over the same interval as well.

A necessary condition to make money on any financed asset is simply:

cost of financing < return on financed assets

Once again, you're cherry-picking the best past performance by long term bonds. This has very little to do with ex-ante expectations. To suggest that these cherry-picked ex-post numbers prove anything is a non-sequitur.
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Postby EM07 » 06May2008 00:42

Newbie here - a lot of great advice being posted here!

I wonder if anyone has considered the effect of inflation over time on the debt maintained under a Smith-type scenario.

Assuming that the nominal value of the debt stays constant, the value of the debt should decline in real terms as time passes. It should also become easier to service the interest over time as one's wages rise with inflation (assuming that happens).

Shouldn't this be factored into the calculation of potential returns?
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Postby pitz » 06May2008 00:55

EM07 wrote:Newbie here - a lot of great advice being posted here!

I wonder if anyone has considered the effect of inflation over time on the debt maintained under a Smith-type scenario.


Well, if you follow the logic that I presented above, a house, in and by of itself, will not provide a return in excess of the cost of the debt, on a pre-tax basis. In other words, the only way to accumulate wealth (build equity) in housing, without deductibility, is to actually pay down your mortgage on an amortization schedule. However, on an after-tax basis, interest deductibility on mortgage debt significantly improves one's ability to build equity in housing, because, while the interest payments are deductible, the imputed return from the house and the capital gains associated with a principal residence are not taxable.

So the SM, on a principal residence, is one of the best forms of tax arbitrage possible, since the income earned and imputed, plus any appreciation, comes completely tax free.

Now, on a rental, its somewhat worse, because you have to pay taxes not only on the rental income, but also on any capital gains associated with the property that you leveraged.

Assuming that the nominal value of the debt stays constant, the value of the debt should decline in real terms as time passes. It should also become easier to service the interest over time as one's wages rise with inflation (assuming that happens).


Sure, but lenders generally make sure that they set interest rates high enough that they are earning just as much on their investment in debt, than a homeowner would be making on their investment in the unlevered asset.

Generally, real wage growth (ie: wage growth over and above inflation) results in real improvements to the size/quality of housing. Houses, do not generally rise any faster than inflation (according to Case and Shiller), so its unlikely that, in the long run, the debt would become easier to service, unless one is building up equity by way of principal repayment, and they resist the temptation to adjust the amortization schedule of their mortgage to lower their payments.

Shouldn't this be factored into the calculation of potential returns?


Well, for the SM, the base case is that one already owns a house, and they are deciding whether to make principal paydown, and just leaving the principal paid down, or whether to take another loan to leverage the equity that exists in the asset.

So most analysis really revolves around the difference from the base case that the SM may or may not provide, assuming the conditions for successful leverage exist.
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Postby EM07 » 06May2008 15:29

Pitz- thank you for your response.

But say I can borrow at ideal mortgage rates, e.g. Prime - 0.8 and I'm in the highest marginal tax bracket. I know you can only get Prime -.8 on a variable closed mortgage, which requires some principal paydown. Let's say I minimize the principal repayment to the extent that I can for SM purposes.

On an after-tax basis, my interest cost is maybe 30-50 basis points above inflation. Inflation has basically canceled out most of my interest cost. If I continue this pattern going forward, wouldn't I be paying interest on a declining balance in real terms?

I know interest rates can rise but they generally do so in response to higher inflation, which would erode the value of the debt further. My wages would be inflated too which would make servicing the debt easier. Alternatively, if I wanted to make lump sum payments on the mortgage, I would be better off doing it with cheaper dollars in the future.

One iteration of the SM contemplates that the debt will not be paid off until death. So let's say, for example, I took out a $45,000 mortgage on a $60,000 house in 1975 and I was able to do it on the terms that I described above. Assume also that I carried that debt all the through to 2008 at 30-50 basis points above inflation. That $45,000 is worth far less now in 2008 dollars and is also a much smaller debt relative to the value of my assets. Even if the value of my house only kept pace with inflation, I would have a $45,000 debt secured by a $250,000 house. Hopefully, I would have also invested prudently and would now have a substantial portfolio of equities.

This only works if there's deductibility hence my comment about including this as a factor in SM analysis.
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Postby pitz » 06May2008 15:45

EM07 wrote:On an after-tax basis, my interest cost is maybe 30-50 basis points above inflation. Inflation has basically canceled out most of my interest cost. If I continue this pattern going forward, wouldn't I be paying interest on a declining balance in real terms?


Absolutely. Being able to deduct your interest expense basically makes homeownership come at pretty much no cost, aside from property taxes/utilities. This is born out in the long term as well.

Doing so gives you a huge cost advantage over most Canadians who, at the ages of somewhere between 25 and 40, take out a mortgage and pay non-deductible interest almost for the rest of their lives.

I know interest rates can rise but they generally do so in response to higher inflation, which would erode the value of the debt further. My wages would be inflated too which would make servicing the debt easier. Alternatively, if I wanted to make lump sum payments on the mortgage, I would be better off doing it with cheaper dollars in the future.


Long-term evidence has borne this out; as I said earlier, the tax arbitrage possible by funding a house with deductible money is pretty much the best case use possible for the SM and leveraged investing.

Basically, the scenario you describe goes like this:

1) Accumulate enough savings to buy a house;
2) Sell those savings, buy the house,
3) Take out a mortgage on the house, repurchase the savings.

One iteration of the SM contemplates that the debt will not be paid off until death. So let's say, for example, I took out a $45,000 mortgage on a $60,000 house in 1975 and I was able to do it on the terms that I described above. Assume also that I carried that debt all the through to 2008 at 30-50 basis points above inflation. That $45,000 is worth far less now in 2008 dollars and is also a much smaller debt relative to the value of my assets. Even if the value of my house only kept pace with inflation, I would have a $45,000 debt secured by a $250,000 house. Hopefully, I would have also invested prudently and would now have a substantial portfolio of equities.


If you had $60k to spend on a house in 1975, yes, you would have done fairly well.

This only works if there's deductibility hence my comment about including this as a factor in SM analysis.


Well, I don't know how you would include it, but basically, the SM favours a scenario in which there are high interest rates, because the real cost of borrowing money, with deductibility, will probably be negative.

If the SM allows you to deduct 40% of your carrying costs, and inflation is 10%/year and interest rates are 12%/year, your real cost would be -2.8%/year to borrow money.

But if inflation is 2%/year, and interest rates are 4%/year, your real cost to borrow money under that scenario is +0.4%/year. So the SM is a very significant way to defend a portfolio against inflation.

There is a reading series put out by a CFA in the US that describes this phenomena in a free lecture series at http://www.mortgagesecretpower.com . Its very well written, and I suggest you check it out if you want to read more about the 'theory' behind hedging inflation with debt. Select the "inflation mini course" link, and you'll get a .pdf in your mailbox every week or two with very interesting information.
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Postby milo » 06May2008 17:09

Are there different types of HELOCS? I remember I heard from somewhere:
1)there is one with principal portion and interest portion which ratio amount changes at each payment
2)and one with just interest?
If this is the case, then to calculate my deductible interest, I have to add up all the
differing interest portions in type 1).
For type 2) will the interest be diff each month? I guess its up to which one you pick from the bank. Also the rates for both types will be different too.

Which one will be a better pick for SM assuming the house is paid off to start with?
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Postby pitz » 06May2008 17:16

milo wrote:Are there different types of HELOCS? I remember I heard from somewhere:
1)there is one with principal portion and interest portion which ratio amount changes at each payment


This is typical of variable rate mortgages handed out by the banks. Typically these loans can't be drawn from, as a HELOC would imply.

2)and one with just interest?


This is typical of HELOCs, although its not inconceivable that the banks may start to require some repayment of principal on them now that it is becoming apparent that collateral is being impaired by housing price declines.

If this is the case, then to calculate my deductible interest, I have to add up all the
differing interest portions in type 1).


The providers I've seen all provide a statement that breaks out interest expense and principal repaid. So you don't have to calculate anything (other than maybe adding up the monthly statements to get an annual figure for interest paid).

For type 2) will the interest be diff each month? I guess its up to which one you pick from the bank. Also the rates for both types will be different too.


The whole idea of a floating rate is that the interest rate does change according to a benchmark, which is usually related to the overnight cost of funding for banks and a spread.

Which one will be a better pick for SM assuming the house is paid off to start with?


Well do you already have an investment portfolio that's non-registered? If you do, I'd suggest using margin (or even options) to build up some indebtness, and then going to the bank and refinancing such debt with a conventional floating or fixed mortgage.

For instance, you could dollar-cost average into call options against certain stock index ETFs that you want to take a levered position in, with a maturity date a year or two down the road. You would then, a year or two down the road, take out a mortgage on the house, and use the proceeds to exercise the options and take delivery of the ETFs.
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Postby milo » 06May2008 23:06

For instance, you could dollar-cost average into call options against certain stock index ETFs that you want to take a levered position in, with a maturity date a year or two down the road. You would then, a year or two down the road, take out a mortgage on the house, and use the proceeds to exercise the options and take delivery of the ETFs.


i have stocks in a margin account,... what do i do without options?
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Postby Nelson » 07May2008 13:03

In regards to "Kiasmine" Clarington fund for her SM option



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The IA Clarington Dividend Growth Fund is modelled after the IA Ecoflex Dividends
(Seg fund) which is the best performing Canadian Dividend Fund over the past decade*.


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1 Year = 0.1% return
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5 Years = 16.4% return
7 Years = 12.1% return
10 Years = 10.6% return
Since Inception = 11.1% return



IA Clarington Dividend Growth Proxy
Source: Zephyr StyleADVISOR, as of March 31st, 2008
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Smith Manoeuvre and "Wash Trades"

Postby DanielCarrera » 14Jul2008 11:47

Back in April Icarus gave me some advice about the Smith Manoeuvre [1] [2]. I had said that I would sell my ETFs, buy the house and then reborrow to buy the ETFs back. Icarus recommended that after I reborrow I buy similar but different ETFs.

The basic reason is the "wash trade" rules. I cannot own the same security for 30 days or CRA will not consider that I ever sold it and so I could not have repurcahsed it with borrowed money. Icarus was not sure if this is actually correct, as the discussion with his accountant was years ago.

I was hoping that someone could confirm or deny this. If this wash trade rule works as Icarus says, could someone confirm that it really is 30 days?

I'm not sure, but if it's only 30 days, I think I would prefer to wait the 30 days rather than buying my #2 choice for each ETF I get.

Thanks for the help.
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Postby saylavbda » 14Jul2008 12:43

The 30 day rule relates to superficial losses. If you sell the ETF at a loss and then rebuy the same ETF within the 30 day window, CRA would not allow you to claim the capital loss. If you sold at a gain, then no issue that I'm aware of as you would have a gain, which CRA would be more than happy to tax.
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Postby marty123 » 14Jul2008 14:12

Yes, that rule relates to superficial losses. Please note that superficial losses apply 30 days prior or 30 days before (i.e. you can't get around the rule by buying new units now, and selling the old ones in 29 days. Some people have reported switching from XIU to XIC, or between index funds from different banks.There is no court judgements showing taxpayers having been denied the loss and having appealed CRA's judgement in court. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened without the taxpayer challenging it, or that it won't happen in the future.

The bigger concern is that your interest deductibility would be denied if the move was deemed to strictly be a tax avoidance move. It's unrelated to the superficial loss rule. You'd indeed still want to buy securities which are not deemed to be identical, or even consider a new asset allocation strategy when reinvesting (some people would recommend you do so when leveraging a house anyway). There were cases where CRA was challenged in court for their denial of this kind of swaps (google Singleton or Lipson). The notable case where CRA denied the tax break involved a convoluted private deal, private company ownership, repurchase agreements, non-arm's length transactions, etc. The SCC decision on Lipson later this year may give CRA more or less latitude to deny these types of maneuvers. The Singleton case was more straightforward and CRA lost, but that was before GAAR.

Because there are no precise rules for your particular situation, and no past judgements with the identical circumstances, it's difficult to come up with an exact methodology, so taking extensive precautions is probably warranted (paper trail for down payment, similar but not identical properties, different asset allocation, different amounts, lapsed timeframes, etc.) in case CRA decides to crack down on this type of transactions. Consulting with a tax lawyer would make sense if the amounts are large.
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Postby DanielCarrera » 14Jul2008 17:15

marty123 wrote:The bigger concern is that your interest deductibility would be denied if the move was deemed to strictly be a tax avoidance move. It's unrelated to the superficial loss rule.


Indeed, this is what I'm mostly concerned about. Paying tax on a capital gain after I sell is perfectly reasonable. What I'm concerned about is deducting interest. And incidentally, SM is indeed a tax avoidance move.

Anyways, what I'm trying to decide right now is whether I should be investing in ETFs which are not my first choice so that later, when I buy the house, I can switch to ETFs which are my first choice. I take it that you think this would be a good idea.
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Postby marty123 » 14Jul2008 18:05

I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea, provided it meets your investment objectives If it were me, maybe I'd consider TD efunds (because the slightly higher MER will make little difference in the short term) then ETFs. It may be too much precautions, or too little. All I'm saying is that if I were in your situation, I'd make sure to place as many variance factors as possible (different asset allocation, different amount, different ETFs/fund, lapsed timing, etc.). It's quite possible that if we're talking about later rather than now, a whole bunch of new factors and income tax act changes are likely to have surfaced.

P.S.: this or anything I write shouldn't be construed as advice. Talk to an advisor or a tax pro.
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Postby DanielCarrera » 15Jul2008 04:41

Ok, I'll aim to have more variance. E.g. I'll replace ETFs from one company by those of another, I'll change the asset allocation, I'll replace "total market" by "large cap" and whatever else I can think of. I could also reborrow less money than I put into the house, and then borrow more the following quarter.

I think that my only regret is having a higher MER, but in truth the difference is very small and hardly noticeable.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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