Historical returns of global equities

Asset allocation, risk, diversification and rebalancing. Pros/cons of hiring a financial advisor.

Postby sevimo » 15May2007 12:51

Taggart wrote:From page 11 of "Irrational Optimism" by Dimson, Staunton and Marsh.

Thank you Taggart, this is exactly the kind of argument I hoped to see in this thread; quantifyable data. Even though I decided to retire from this thread, your post indeed deserves to be addressed.

In fact, your article fills a few missing pieces of historical data that I was missing in a Yearbook I referred to. For instance, now we can say that World returns were positive every and each 21 year period (expressed in US dollars - I'll address this later). It also provided lower volatility than US for 20-year returns.

As Table 1 shows, over the past 103 years, global diversification via our world index would have lowered the returns earned by a U.S. investor because overseas equities underperformed U.S. stocks and the dollar was strong against most other currencies. At the same time, however, global diversification would have lowered risk.

The bar for the world index in Figure 3 shows the net impact of these factors for our notional U.S.-based global investor. Despite incorporating many countries where investors historically needed horizons much longer than 20 years to avoid losses, the world index nearly met the 20-year test. Although the worst 20-year return was –0.2 percent a year, the annualized real returns were consistently positive over all intervals of at least 21 years.

Now, to address the issue of currencies:
Furthermore, our findings for the world index are dependent on being U.S. based. When world index returns are expressed in German Marks (now Euros) from the perspective of a German citizen, they reveal that a German global investor would have needed to wait 57 years to be assured of a positive return. Similarly, global investors in the world index from Italy and Japan would have needed horizons of 33 and 34 years. These extended horizons are the result of the historical volatility of exchange rates.

Actually, I was expecting that someone in this thread will point to this, so thanks again Taggart. Now, looking at these numbers we can assume that these were the worst performers, currency-wise. I.e. just about everyone else actually turned up profits in their local currency over the course of 30 years (remember, the article looks at 20 year intervals, and we were talking about 30). Now, a minor point is that investors do not need 100% in their local currency, rather they are interested in a basket of currencies to match their liabilities. Surely this will be heavily tilted to the domestic currency, but it won't be 100%. It is reasonable to assume that such a basket will pull Japan and Italy under 30-years. But this is speculation as I don't have data for this, and there is a more important reason why it is not relevant.

Let's look at the countries in question. Germany, Italy, Japan. Do you see a connection here? Now we're are going back to my argument that if you were born at a certain time in Germany, you were screwed and you could do nothing about it. Destruction of value happened across the board, and now I can show that diversified all-stock still provided the best possible results.

The recommended risk-mitigation strategy for a portfolio is a diversification across assets (as stipulated in Taggart's article), and I suspect this means domestic bonds (also martingale's suggestion). Now I'll tell you what these 3 countries in question share in common (except the obvious): these are 3 countries where bonds pulled out unprecedented feat of yielding non-trivial negative real return averaged over the last 100 years (-1.8%, -1.3%, -1.8%). No other country in the list, and certainly no stocks in any listed country, can boast such a claim.

I can add even more - look at the equity over bond premium. For Germany and Japan these values are higher than world average and are higher than for US. This means that asset that is supposed to protect me from the nasties of the stock market not only actively destroyed value, but it underperformed even more than in the countries that were not affected.

Are these assets that you want me to diversify into? Thanks, but I'll pass.

Now, there is a second part of the article that deals with prediction of the future. I won't address all the points there, but I will note that there were quite a few changes in US and World economies since 2002 - the last year that they considered. Trivial example would be balooning P/E ratios - I did address it before, but just for the record, in 2002 P/E ratios in US were ~45, and now they're ~17, which is just about average value. The same is true for other markets. US market cap is down from 54% in 2003 to less than 40%. US dollar is at the all-time lows. Guess how World index was doing all this time?

Which brings us to the last point - declining dividend ratios as a predictor of declining future returns. You see, on each analysis that spells imminent doom and gloom (very convincingly), it is easy to provide an analysis that provides equally opposite perspective, equally convincingly. Analysis of the first category tend to concentrate on the problems of US economy (which are debatable); but more importantly, they fail to notice that the more problems US have, the less important it becomes for the world economy (notice declining market cap); and even more importantly, they fail to notice that there are a lot of other countries around the world (as surprisinig as it may seem). Just as research of the second kind may overemphasize emerging markets, globalization, low-interest rates/inflation and reducing volatility.

This is nothing new, and both kinds of outlooks were there countless times in the past.

As an example of the rosy outlook for the world, see Why We Remain Bullish?. It is no less (and no more) convincing to me than other research.

At GaveKal, we believe that there are five great secular trends which essentially account for the remarkable strength of the world economy and financial markets:
1. Globalisation is leading to much greater economic stability.
2. Emerging markets are finally emerging.
3. A financial revolution has created a democracy of credit and changed the risk profiles of many asset classes.
4. Low inflation has become established as a worldwide norm.
5. Monetary policy has gone through a counter-counter-revolution.


They also address (in detail) concerns of overvaluation:
...let us consider the four reasons why risk assets could in principle be dangerously overvalued:
1. Growth and profitability could decline
2. Inflation and interest rates could rise
3. Valuations could be unreasonably expensive
4. Liquidity/leverage could be dangerously high


Reviewing our recent History further convinces us that something deeply structural is happening in our markets. To illustrate this, we will make an honest confession: if someone had come to us five years ago and told us that we would experience:
a) A 75% wipeout on the Nasdaq,
b) 9/11 and the anthrax attack, terrorist attacks in Madrid, London, Mumbai…,
c) Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and oil at US$75/bl,
d) Enron, MCI, Worldcom…,
e) SARS & bird flu,
f) GM debt downgraded to junk (GM is the fourth largest bond issuer in the World)
g) Katrina,
h) Refco (the biggest commodity broker) and Amaranth (the biggest hedge fund blow-up),
i) A big conflict between Israel and Hezbollah that Israel would not win,
j) A nuclear bomb detonation in North Korea…, and
k) The first year-on-year fall in US house prices in ten years and a blow-out of the US subprime lending space…,
we would have likely concluded that the best thing to do was to head to our lake house in Oklahoma, load up on guns, cartridges and bottled water and wait it out. If that same person had told us that in the US, and in most other countries, corporate profits would be reaching record highs, that the World MSCI would be hitting all-time highs and that the VIX index would hit all-time lows, we would definitely have called for the men in white coats with the van and the padded room. Yet, here we are. And the only people in need of a padded room are the doom and gloomers who are spinning themselves in circle trying to come up with new potential nightmare scenarios for the global economy.
...
The fact that these shocks faded away so quickly, doing so little damage to the markets, suggests to us that most investors, far from being overexposed and overleveraged are still not committed or leveraged enough.
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Postby parvus » 15May2007 21:42

sevimo wrote:
Thank you Taggart, this is exactly the kind of argument I hoped to see in this thread; quantifyable data. Even though I decided to retire from this thread, your post indeed deserves to be addressed.

Actually, sevimo, there's lots of interesting stuff on SSRN; I use it frequently in my discussions here.

You may also want to take a gander at: Does International Diversification Increase the Sustainable Withdrawal Rates from Retirement Portfolios?
The research reported here examines the effect of international equity diversification on the sustainability of a range of withdrawal rates from retirement portfolios with varying U.S. and international stock/bond asset allocations. Sustainability of a withdrawal rate is measured by portfolio success rates—that is, the percentage of 1,000 simulated portfolios of a rebalanced asset allocation that completed 15-, 20-, 25- and 30-year payout periods with positive values. Although the return/risk impact of international stocks on U.S. portfolios has changed over the past 30 years, our research suggests that retirees with portfolios composed of 50 percent equities or greater would benefit only modestly in the long run from international diversification.

Where Are the Gains from Intemational Diversification?
EAFE and international marketlike mandates are popular with U.S. institutional fund sponsors. The rationale seems to be that the international equity market has higher expected returns than the U.S. equity market and can substantially diversify U.S. portfolios. The empirical evidence for the 1970-94 period does not support either claim. Nor does theory help. Asset pricing models do not argue that risk factors have geographically different expected returns. Recent research for the U.S. market shows that two risk factors, value and size, explain differences in expected returns across equity portfolios. Preliminary evidence suggests that the same factors work in foreign markets, as well. International value stocks and international small stocks diversfy U.S. portfolios more than EAFE. In fact, a sensible reason to diversify internationally is to "load up" on value stocks and small stocks without concentrating in one geographic region. If one does not wish to concentrate in such stocks, then international diversification for U.S. sponsors may be unnecessary.

GLOBAL PORTFOLIOS WITH MARKET, SIZE AND VALUE CONSIDERATIONS
The market premium is the largest for the U.S. Small Stock (1.19 percent) for Period 3. However, it is
interesting to observe that the market premium for the S&P 500 (1.22 percent) is recently larger than the market premium for the Small Cap (1.19 percent)(for Period 1). Similar to the case of Sharpe ratios, the market premiums for the MSCI EAFE and the IFCG Composite are much lower than the domestic market premiums. The former (.68 percent) is better for Period 1, the latter (.55 percent) is better for Period 2. The market premiums for the IFCG Latin America (1.15-2.14 percent) and the MSCI Europe (.78 to1.19 percent) are the best among the others. On the other hand, U.K., Japan, Pacific and partly Asia have negative market premiums.

As for the value premiums, the MSCI EAFE Value Index (.12 to .14 percent) yields positive value premiums over three periods, whereas the SP/Barra Value Index (.04 percent) has only one for Period 1. Conversely, domestic or international, all growth premiums are negative.

Another noteworthy finding is that the size premiums are positive in general. In the meantime, the MSCI EAFE small size premium (.80 percent) is quite large. This verifies the findings of Sinquefield. For all periods, there are no significant differences between the market risk premiums of the domestic and international markets. However, only four regional indexes (U.K. FT 100, Japan Nikkei, Pacific and Asia) have significantly different market premiums from the domestic market premium.

More important, the difference tests for value, growth and size factors in domestic and international markets are not significant either. In this regard, our findings are different from the conclusions of Sinquefield, but consistent with the results of Berk (1997) as well as Jensen, Johnson and Mercer (1998).


Then, when it comes to 30-year rolling returns, there's this:
Risk and Time
The Fallacy of Time Diversification
Portfolio theory teaches that we can decrease the uncertainty of a portfolio without sacrificing expected return by diversifying over a wide range of assets and asset classes. Some people think that this principle can also be used in the time dimension. They argue that if you invest for a long enough time, good and bad returns tend to "even out" or "cancel each other out," and hence time diversifies a portfolio in much the same way that investing in multiple assets and asset classes diversifies a portfolio.

For example, one often hears advice like the following: "At your young age, you have enough time to recover from any dips in the market, so you can safely ignore bonds and go with an all stock retirement portfolio." This kind of statement makes the implicit assumption that given enough time good returns will cancel out any possible bad returns. This is nothing more than a popular version of the supposed "principle" of time diversification. It is usually accepted without question as an obvious fact, made true simply because it is repeated so often, a kind of mean reversion with a vengeance.

In the investing literature, the argument for this principle is often made by observing that as the time horizon increases, the standard deviation of the annualized return decreases. I most frequently see this illustrated as a bar chart displaying a decreasing range of historical minimum to maximum annualized returns over increasing time periods. Some of these charts are so convincing that one is left with the impression that over a very long time horizon investing is a sure thing. After all, look at how tiny those 30 and 40 year bars are on the chart, and how close the minimum and maximum annualized returns are to the average. Give me enough time for all those ups and downs in the market to even out and I can't lose!

While the basic argument that the standard deviations of the annualized returns decrease as the time horizon increases is true, it is also misleading, and it fatally misses the point, because for an investor concerned with the value of his portfolio at the end of a period of time, it is the total return that matters, not the annualized return. Because of the effects of compounding, the standard deviation of the total return actually increases with time horizon. Thus, if we use the traditional measure of uncertainty as the standard deviation of return over the time period in question, uncertainty increases with time.

(The incurious can safely skip the math in this paragraph.) To be precise, in the random walk model, simply compounded rates of return and portfolio ending values are lognormally distributed. Continuously compounded rates of returns are normally distributed. The standard deviation of the annualized continuously compounded returns decreases in proportion to the square root of the time horizon. The standard deviation of the total continuously compounded returns increases in proportion to the square root of the time horizon. Thus, for example, a 16 year investment is 4 times as uncertain as a 1 year investment if we measure "uncertainty" as standard deviation of continuously compounded total return.

As an example, those nice bar charts would look quite different and would certainly leave quite a different impression on the reader if they properly showed minimum and maximum total returns rather than the misleading minimum and maximum annualized returns. As time increases, we'd clearly be able to see that the spread of possible ending values of our portfolio, which is what we care about, gets larger and larger, and hence more and more uncertain. After 30 or 40 years the spreads are quite enormous and clearly show how the uncertainty of investing increases dramatically at very long horizons. Investing over these long periods of time suddenly changes in the reader's mind from a sure thing to a very unsure thing indeed!
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Postby YogiBear » 16May2007 02:00

sevimo wrote:You've picked a weak example. This sounds like nothing even remotely close to WWII. World index losses - -18% (total, not annualized) over several years. Hardly a catastrophy for a portfolio, and I believe we've been here before.


Unfortunately, your example is worse than weak, it is nonsensical.

In the WW II era US market capitalization was a very substantial proportion of the world index capitalization (I cannot quickly find an exact number, but my copy of Global Investing shows on page 106 that US equity market capitalization was 73.3% of the world total in 1960- do you think it was lower in 1945, before European and Japanese reconstruction?). The US was the world's biggest (economic) winner from WW II, bar none- and US stock returns reflect that fact (the annual total return for the US equity market in 1942-45 was well into double digits for each of those years). But ... if you cite a world index -18% total return for approximately the same years (more or less flat on an annualized basis), and the largest component of those returns was going gangbusters every year ... that must mean investors in a whole lot of other countries did not do nearly so well, doesn't it? They did not experience anything as benign as -18% returns during that period, did they? They did a whole lot worse ...

Still think WW II was not a portfolio catastrophe for most of the world? Still think a major event such as the scenario I outlined would not have a possibility of producing nasty portfolio effects for many years to come? Once again you fall into the same old trap of not being able to shift your frame of reference to see things from another perspective than that of the retrospective winners.


sevimo wrote:
YogiBear wrote:the relevant question is whether the next 30+ years will be similar to the past 100 years. And I am prepared to rely upon the assumption that the answer will be NO

This time it is different (tm). I am sure this was said countless times before. I rest my case.


"Past performance is no guarantee of future results"(TM)- except in sevimo-land, of course ...

Case rebutted. :wink:
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Postby martingale » 16May2007 17:48

Then, when it comes to 30-year rolling returns, there's this:
Risk and Time


The argument in there based on options trading is an interesting one. So, sevimo, would you be willing to sell a 30 year put on the S&P 500 for less money than a 1 year put with the same present-value strike price?

SPY closed today, May 16, at $151.60 and the yield on XLB, a long bond fund, is currently 4.63, so which of the following put options would you sell to me for less money:

(1) A $151.60*1.0463 = $158.62 put option on SPY that I can exercise on May 16, 2008

(2) A $151.60*1.0463^30 = $589.37 put option on SPY that I can exercise on May 16, 2037

In other words, am I more likely to lose to bonds over a 1 year period, or over a 30 year period?

If you like we can restate the above in fully inflation-adjusted terms using the yield on RRB's.

If you think you can reduce equity risk by holding equities for a long period of time you ought to be willing to sell me the 2037 put option for less money than the 2008 option since you would feel you are taking less of a risk over the 30 year period.

Conventionally put options become more expensive the further into the future the call date is, but according to you, they should become cheaper?
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Postby George$ » 25Feb2008 16:14

Global Investment Returns Yearbook 2008: Synopsis

The Global Investment Returns Yearbook was launched in 2000. It is produced for ABN AMRO by London Business
School experts Elroy Dimson, Paul Marsh and Mike Staunton, with a contributed chapter by Rolf Elgeti, ABN
AMRO’s former Head of Equity Strategy.

This synopsis outlines the contents of the 2008 Yearbook and highlights some of its key findings.

The core of the Yearbook is provided by a long-run study covering 108 years of investment since 1900 in all the
main asset categories in Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Japan, the
Netherlands, Norway, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

These markets today make up some 85% of world equity market capitalisation. GIRY also reviews recent performance in
a wider set of 29 markets comprising 98% of world capitalisation. With the unrivalled quality and breadth of its
database, the Yearbook is the global authority on long-run stock, bond, bill and foreign exchange performance.

In the 2008 Yearbook, the authors address some of the most important questions in investment.
“The search for truth is more precious than its possession.” Albert Einstein
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Postby George$ » 08Jul2008 17:30

I would have guessed that there must be a positive link between economic growth and investment returns.

Apparantly not.
Look at the chart (Figure 5) on page 4 (Overview of Chapter 3) in
Global Investment Returns Yearbook 2005
- my emphasis
-- The authors, Elroy Dimson, Paul Marsh and Mike Staunton of London Business School, conclude:
"Our findings are unambiguous. Investors who allocate assets to countries with high expected GDP
growth do not, on average, achieve superior returns.
Historically, buying into equity markets with a
high GDP growth rate has given a return that is below the return of markets with a low GDP growth
rate”.

How does one explain this in economic terms?
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Postby parvus » 08Jul2008 17:59

Glamour stocks (i.e., priced for perfection) versus a value premium (i.e., a turnaround situation)?
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Postby Taggart » 08Jul2008 19:14

George$ wrote:I would have guessed that there must be a positive link between economic growth and investment returns.

Apparantly not.
Look at the chart (Figure 5) on page 4 (Overview of Chapter 3) in
Global Investment Returns Yearbook 2005
- my emphasis
-- The authors, Elroy Dimson, Paul Marsh and Mike Staunton of London Business School, conclude:
"Our findings are unambiguous. Investors who allocate assets to countries with high expected GDP
growth do not, on average, achieve superior returns.
Historically, buying into equity markets with a
high GDP growth rate has given a return that is below the return of markets with a low GDP growth
rate”.

How does one explain this in economic terms?


I don't think one could say that about Japan in the early 60's. GDP growth averaged 10 percent and the U.S. economy around 4 percent. Average stock 4X P/E in Japan versus 19.5X P/E in the U.S.
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Postby NormR » 08Jul2008 23:50

George$ wrote:I would have guessed that there must be a positive link between economic growth and investment returns.

Apparantly not.
Look at the chart (Figure 5) on page 4 (Overview of Chapter 3) in
Global Investment Returns Yearbook 2005
- my emphasis
-- The authors, Elroy Dimson, Paul Marsh and Mike Staunton of London Business School, conclude:
"Our findings are unambiguous. Investors who allocate assets to countries with high expected GDP
growth do not, on average, achieve superior returns.
Historically, buying into equity markets with a
high GDP growth rate has given a return that is below the return of markets with a low GDP growth
rate”.

How does one explain this in economic terms?


It's a good question. The economic growth != equity growth is a common practical observation. I've seen a few explanations. Here's a good article...

Not so fast
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Postby George$ » 09Jul2008 14:38

NormR wrote:It's a good question. The economic growth != equity growth is a common practical observation. I've seen a few explanations. Here's a good article...

Not so fast


Yes I now recall reading that Economist article. It references a James Montier study - and I have not been ably to find it. Is it on your website Norm?

My naive impression is that economists have not addressed the question of how GDP relates to equity markets. (But I'm not very certain of myself here.) It certainly does seem like a fundamental issue - maybe even an eventual Noble prize :roll: for someone. Who knows. :shock:
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Postby George$ » 09Jul2008 15:07

The Economist referencs to Jay Ritter, here is a link to the paper
Economic growth and equity returns (15 page pdf file) by Jay R. Ritter
Abstract
It is widely believed that economic growth is good for stockholders. However, the cross-country
correlation of real stock returns and per capita GDP growth over 1900–2002 is negative. Economic
growth occurs from high personal savings rates and increased labor force participation, and from
technological change. If increases in capital and labor inputs go into new corporations, these do not
boost the present value of dividends on existing corporations. Technological change does not
increase profits unless firms have lasting monopolies, a condition that rarely occurs. Countries with
high growth potential do not offer good equity investment opportunities unless valuations are low.
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Postby Taggart » 24Aug2008 03:51

New Zealand Herald

Count your blessings - and there are some

Saturday August 23, 2008
By Brent Sheather

We all know that "shares are for the long term" but not everyone realises just how long "long term" can be.

If 10 years is your idea of "long term", recent experience suggests that simply isn't long enough to guarantee a positive outcome.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby Bylo Selhi » 16Jan2010 09:44

Why Some Investors May Be Fooling Themselves
What are we smoking, and when will we stop? A nationwide survey last year found that investors expect the U.S. stock market to return an annual average of 13.7% over the next 10 years...

I asked several investing experts what guaranteed net-net-net return they would accept to swap out their own assets. William Bernstein of Efficient Frontier Advisors would take 4%. Laurence Siegel, a consultant and former head of investment research at the Ford Foundation: 3%. John C. Bogle, founder of the Vanguard Group of mutual funds: 2.5%. Elroy Dimson of London Business School, an expert on the history of market returns: 0.5%...

All this suggests a useful reality check. If your financial planner says he can earn you 6% annually, net-net-net, tell him you'll take it, right now, upfront. In fact, tell him you'll take 5% and he can keep the difference. In exchange, you will sell him your entire portfolio at its current market value. You've just offered him the functional equivalent of what Wall Street calls a total-return swap.

Unless he's a fool or a crook, he probably will decline your offer. If he's honest, he should admit that he can't get sufficient returns to honor the swap.

So make him explain what rate he would be willing to pay if he actually had to execute a total return swap with you. That's the number you both should use to estimate the returns on your portfolio.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby Peculiar_Investor » 16Jan2010 10:18

Bylo Selhi wrote:Why Some Investors May Be Fooling Themselves
What are we smoking, and when will we stop? A nationwide survey last year found that investors expect the U.S. stock market to return an annual average of 13.7% over the next 10 years...

I asked several investing experts what guaranteed net-net-net return they would accept to swap out their own assets. William Bernstein of Efficient Frontier Advisors would take 4%. Laurence Siegel, a consultant and former head of investment research at the Ford Foundation: 3%. John C. Bogle, founder of the Vanguard Group of mutual funds: 2.5%. Elroy Dimson of London Business School, an expert on the history of market returns: 0.5%...

All this suggests a useful reality check. If your financial planner says he can earn you 6% annually, net-net-net, tell him you'll take it, right now, upfront. In fact, tell him you'll take 5% and he can keep the difference. In exchange, you will sell him your entire portfolio at its current market value. You've just offered him the functional equivalent of what Wall Street calls a total-return swap.

Unless he's a fool or a crook, he probably will decline your offer. If he's honest, he should admit that he can't get sufficient returns to honor the swap.

So make him explain what rate he would be willing to pay if he actually had to execute a total return swap with you. That's the number you both should use to estimate the returns on your portfolio.

I've just finished reading the article, as should everyone. I challenged myself on the central question:
Robert Veres, editor of the Inside Information financial-planning newsletter wrote:estimate long-term future stock returns after inflation, expenses and taxes, what I call a "net-net-net" return

One point that struck me is that while I understand the impact of inflation and taxes on my returns, I don't think about my investment return with those factors included. My tool set (Quicken, Excel spreadsheets) allows me to calculate returns over various periods, but they don't expose the inflation and tax expenses. Therefore if I were asked the question that Mr. Veres asks, I'm more than likely to be too high as well. I don't think I'm alone in this view of returns, look at any thread on this site that asks about FWF member's returns and I don't recall seeing many that state a return as "net-net-net". I'm also left to wonder if there is a difference in thought process based on the stage in our investment life. It likely is different for those in accumulation mode vs. those in withdrawal mode.

I'm not trying to understate the importance of considering inflation and tax expenses, I just don't think that the average investor has organized their thought process around investment returns to include these factors, thus the average investor is likely to overstate their expected returns. Getting back to the central thesis of the article, it is still likely our estimates of future returns, even if adjusted to "net-net-net" are still too high. This should give us all cause to examine our expectations. It may be hard because of personal bias, after all, I would hazard the guess that if polled, we'd all consider ourselves better than average drivers.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby scomac » 16Jan2010 11:48

Peculiar_Investor wrote:I don't think I'm alone in this view of returns, look at any thread on this site that asks about FWF member's returns and I don't recall seeing many that state a return as "net-net-net". I'm also left to wonder if there is a difference in thought process based on the stage in our investment life. It likely is different for those in accumulation mode vs. those in withdrawal mode.


This is probably a more pertinent issues for those that are withdrawing than those who are still in savings mode. Most financial planning software incorporates adjustments for inflation and taxes when running the simulations to see if the plan is rigorous. When you're in the withdrawal mode, there really is no recovery from overly aggressive withdrawal rates. Calculating the net-net-net on an on-going basis could provide you with a quick way to see if your withdrawal rate can stand the test of time based on your individual plan's results. The problem with using this sort of methodology when in the savings mode is that the impacts of taxation could be so far off for registered accounts as to render any attempt at estimating a PV of an annualized future tax liability.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby Bylo Selhi » 16Jan2010 13:08

Peculiar_Investor wrote:One point that struck me is that while I understand the impact of inflation and taxes on my returns, I don't think about my investment return with those factors included.
A bit of a digression, but that's why some of us buy RRBs. When they yielded north of 3% real, it was a no-brainer to load up, especially with strips. In effect the government of Canada, assisted by strippers ( ;) ), was willing to do a net-net-net swap for more than Bogle's or Dimson's thresholds.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby Norbert Schlenker » 16Jan2010 13:18

Bylo Selhi wrote:... that's why some of us buy RRBs. When they yielded north of 3% real, it was a no-brainer to load up, especially with strips. In effect the government of Canada, assisted by strippers ( ;) ), was willing to do a net-net-net swap for more than Bogle's or Dimson's thresholds.

You missed the third "net" - taxes. 3% real was more like 1.5-1.8% after taxes, so Bogle is quite blue sky as well. These days, of course, RRBs offer about 1.5%, i.e. less than 1% net-net-net, so Dimson would appear to be a prophet.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby Shakespeare » 16Jan2010 13:24

3% real was more like 1.5-1.8% after taxes
If you manage to keep the withdrawals in a lower tax bracket, it could readily be more. Marginal tax rate in AB in the bottom federal bracket is 25%. 3x.75=2.25%. Even better, 3.6x.75=2.7%. The higher rates are inapplicable if you live long enough to withdraw your RRSP at a lower rate.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby Bylo Selhi » 16Jan2010 13:47

Norbert Schlenker wrote:You missed the third "net" - taxes...

Yabbut my RRBs are inside RRSPs ;)

The, um, real reason for making this post is to comment that now this thread now appears in "View active topics." Thanks.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby Shakespeare » 16Jan2010 13:49

Yabbut my RRBs are inside RRSPs
You (or Mrs. Bylo) are still liable for taxes when you spend it...or your estate is.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby Bylo Selhi » 16Jan2010 13:58

Shakespeare wrote:You (or Mrs. Bylo) are still liable for taxes when you spend it...or your estate is.
Hence the wink. I was making light of the attitude of some that RRSPs are tax-free forever.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby scomac » 16Jan2010 14:16

Norbert Schlenker wrote:
Bylo Selhi wrote:... that's why some of us buy RRBs. When they yielded north of 3% real, it was a no-brainer to load up, especially with strips. In effect the government of Canada, assisted by strippers ( ;) ), was willing to do a net-net-net swap for more than Bogle's or Dimson's thresholds.

You missed the third "net" - taxes. 3% real was more like 1.5-1.8% after taxes, so Bogle is quite blue sky as well. These days, of course, RRBs offer about 1.5%, i.e. less than 1% net-net-net, so Dimson would appear to be a prophet.


I don't know about that. I've only got about 8 years worth of data to work from, but if I use my ~8.5% CAGR less an average tax rate of ~22% currently and then subtract the ave. annual CPI during that period, I'm coming up with a rough and dirty 4.5% net-net-net. Of course, this isn't risk free in the sense that a RRB is, but still, the after-tax risk premium is pretty darned substantial. Even if we assume there will be some sort of reversion of my personal returns to something more in-line with a market portfolio, that would still make Bernstein, Siegel and Bogle's estimates well within the realm of expected probabilities.
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby ghariton » 16Jan2010 16:37

scomac wrote:Of course, this isn't risk free in the sense that a RRB is, but still, the after-tax risk premium is pretty darned substantial.


Close to my heart.

For the past twenty years I have done my financial planning on a net-net-net basis. The calculation takes a bit of work, especially the taxes part. I usually do a rough-and-ready, but three times I did a detailed work-up, when I first retired in 1998, when I found I had to go back to work in 2001, and when my wife retired in 2005.

For the rough-and-ready updates, I use a risk-free after-inflation, before-tax return of 1.5%. That's the mid-point of the long term return I expect on RRBs of 1% to 2%. I also use an equity risk premium of 3%, after staring at Triumph of the Optimists for a long time, then adjusting for the world-wide slowdown in population growth. I wouldn't be surprised by an equity risk premium as low as 1% or as high as 7%. Finally, as a rule of thumb I use a tax rate of one third. I suspect, given recent developments, that is on the low side long term, and I'll probably go to 40% in the near future.

One disadvantage of doing one's financial planning on a net-net-net basis is that it's difficult to design benchmarks. Indeed, I remember when I talked to several financial advisers in the 1990s about the possibility of using their services, we had a lot of trouble communicating. I finally quit trying, and made my very own mistakes. I still have trouble talking to people about financial planning.

On the other hand, since we all will be living on after expense/after inflation/after tax dollars, it seems to me that this is the only number that really matters. Why do we care about any other numbers, except as an input or shortcut? And if so, why do so very few people plan on a net-net-net basis?

We've got an awful lot of educating to do.

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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby Taggart » 16Jan2010 16:38

In his fourth edition (2002) of "Winning the Loser's Game", page 153, Charles Ellis shows the results of what a U.S. million dollars would be worth after 35 years (1964 - 2000) investing in three asset classes, and after taxes, inflation and investment costs.

Stocks $1.8 million

Bonds $755,000

T-bills $589,000
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Re: Historical returns of global equities

Postby tidal » 18Jan2010 20:47

bump... 'coz I just bumped into the Zweig article elsewhere, so then searched for and found it here...

that is an important article... I might weigh in some tomorrow...

This is not new stuff, but it's grim stuff, and I am surprised how little discussion it elicits... Was there (proportionatley) more on the US site?

for this, and other, reasons, the bidness this would give me the most concern about would be a p&c insurer with a non-growing workforce and large legacy entitlement programs... grim indeed... i'm not sure they have the pricing power in premiums avoid a reckoning with reality???
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